1965 WINTER NATIONALS RESULTS
1965 WINTER NATIONALS RESULTS – Alternative results
WINTERNATIONALS – Top Stock run offs
65 SPRING NATIONALS
INDY NATIONALS
65 WORLD FINALS JR STOCK
RESULTS
Top Stock eliminator saw some odd results. Why? Sandbagging….NHRA refused to change their eliminator handicap system…so too many brake lights were seen at the top end of the track as drivers desperately avoided breaking out over existing records – this favoured less temperamental more consistent cars – but was not always a sign of who was making HP!
CAR AND DRIVER NOTES –
FACTORING – 1965 was the first year that NHRA directly intervened and changed the HP ratings quoted by the factories.
The hot Super/Stock engines had started to make a mockery of the factory HP ratings, so NHRA took to ‘re-factoring’ the output of certain motors they thought were too dominant.
- The 64 Dodge/Plymouth A864 Race Hemi 426cui/425hp – Re-factored in 65 to 500hp.
- 65 Dodge/Plymouth A990 Race Hemi 426cui/425hp. – Re-factored to 500hp.
- The 64 Ford 427cui/425hp FE Hi Riser was re-factored to 500hp – The T-Bolt was gone anyway, along with the 64 alloy nose Hemi 2 door sedan, under the 8lb rule
NOTE – The Ford 427 SOHC was not adjusted as it competed only in FX and that used a different formula, HP per cui. It would have competed in the fastest FX class regardless of factoring.
THE 8lb RULE –
Contrary to popular belief, the use of fibreglass and aluminium was NOT banned for 1965. However, from 65-68 NHRA adjusted the Weight/Cubic inch rule from 7.5lbs/cid for Stock cars to Super Stock class cars under 8 lbs per CID (Not to be confused with lb/hp factoring).
The following cars were booted from Super Stock class –
- 64 427/425hp 8V (Cold air) Fairlane Thunderbolt (500hp) – 8lb rule 3203/427= 7.50 lbs
- 64 426/425hp 8V Race Hemi (Cold air) all 2dr sed Plymouth A864 Race Hemi – 8lb rule 3234/426=7.59lbs
- 64 426/425hp 8V Race Hemi (Cold air) Steel 2dr Plym Belv Htop 8lb rule 3247/426 = 7.62
- 64 426/425hp 8V Race Hemi (Cold air) Alloy 2dr Dodge 330 sed 8lb rule 3247/426 = 7.62
- 64 426/425hp 8V Race Hemi (Cold air) Steel 2dr Dodge 440 Htop 8lb rule 3259/426 = 7.65
1965 STOCK RACING COMBINATIONS
S/S
0-6.99 hp/lbs
- 65 426/425hp 8V A990 Race Hemi Plymouth/Dodge 2dr sed. (500HP) 6.82 – 3410
AA/S – 7.0-8.69
- 64 427/425hp 8V Hi riser Galaxie 500 ‘Lightweight’ (Cold air) (500hp) 7.50 – 3749
- 63 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge Plym Savoy 2dr sed. (Cold air)- 7.54 – 3204
- 62 413/420hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plymouth Savoy – 7.58. – 3184
- 63 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge Dodge 330 2dr sed (Cold air)- 7.60 – 3230
- 64 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge 2dr Plym Savoy sed (Cold air) – 7.61 – 3234
- 64 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge 2dr Plym Belv sedans (Cold air)- 7.64 – 3230
- 64 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge 2dr Plym Belv Htop (Cold air) – 7.64 – 3247
- 64 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge 2dr Dodge 330 sed (Cold air) – 7.64 – 3247
- 64 426/425hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge 2dr Dodge 440 Htop (Cold air)- 7.67 – 3259
- 63 426/415hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge Plym Savoy 2dr sed (Cold air)- 7.73 – 3207
- 65 427/425hp 8V med riser Ford Galaxie Custom 2dr sedan (460hp) – 7.74- 3560
- 63 426/415hp 8V Alloy Maxwedge Dodge 330 2dr sed (Cold air)- 7.79 – 3232
- 64 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plym Savoy 2dr sed – 7.79 – 3310
- 62 413/420hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge Dart – 7.80 – 3276
- 63 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plymouth Savoy 2dr sedan- 7.84 – 3333
- 63 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 2dr sedan- 7.90 – 3357
- 63 427/430hp 8V Chevrolet Impala LW Z11 – 7.90 (Not legal build#s – info only) -3397
- 65 427/425hp 8V med riser Ford Galaxie 2dr H/top (460hp) – 7.91- 3638
- 64 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plym Savoy 2dr sed (Cold air) – 7.99 – 3396
- 64 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plym Belv 2dr Htop (Cold air) – 8.01 – 3404
- 63 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plym Savoy 2dr sed – 8.03 – 3332
- 64 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 2dr sed – 8.07 – 3349
- 63 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 2dr sed- 8.09 – 3357
- 64 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 440 2dr Htop – 8.11- 3259
- 65 427/425hp 8V med riser Ford LTD 2dr H/top (460hp)- 8.15- 3749
- 66 327/350hp 4V Nova L79 Hardtop – 8.22 – 2877
- 65 427/425hp 8V med riser Ford Galaxie XL 2dr h/top (460hp)- 8.23 – 3786
- 64 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 2dr sed – 8.27 – 3432
- 64 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plym Belv 2dr sed – 8.30 – 3445
- 64 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 440 2dr Htop – 8.31 – 3448
- 65 427/425hp 8V med riser Ford LTD 4dr H/top (460hp) – 8.35 – 3841
- 65 427/425hp 8V Lo riser Ford Custom 2dr sedan – 8.38 – 3561
- 65 427/425hp 8V med riser Ford Custom 2dr sedan (465hp) – 8.38 – 3897
- 63 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plymouth Belv Wagon 6p – 8.49 – 3608
- 63 426/425hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 Wagon 6p – 8.51 3574
- 65 427/425hp 8V Lo riser Ford Galaxie 2h/top – 8.56 3638
A/S – 8.70-9.49
- 63 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plymouth Belv Wagon 6p – 8.70 – 3610
- 63 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 Wagon 6p – 8.71 – 3754
- 65 327/350 4V Chevelle 300 2dr sed. stick – 8.73 – 3056
- 62 413/410hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Dodge 330 Wagon 9p – 8.75 – 3587
- 62 409/409 8V Chev Biscayne 2dr sedan – 8.79 – 3595
- 62 409/409hp 8V Chev Belair 2dr bubbletop – 8.81 – 3603
- 65 427/425hp 8V Lo riser Gal LTD 2ht – 8.82 3748
- 63 426/415hp 8V Steel Maxwedge Plymouth Belv Wagon 9p – 8.85 – 3672
- 65 396/375 4V Z16 Chevy Malibu stick – 8.93- 3350
- 62 421/405hp 8V Pontiac Catalina Super Duty LW – 8.94 – 3665
- 63 427/425hp 8V lo riser Galaxie 2ht – 9.02 – 3833
- 63 427/425hp 8V Ford Custom 2d sedan – 9.03 – 3837
- 65 427/425hp 8V Lo riser LTD 4h/top – 9.04 – 3842
- 62 406/405hp 3x2V Ford Galaxie 2dr sedan- 9.07 – 3673
- 65 409/409hp 4V Chevrolet Biscayne – 9.14- 3740
- 65 409/400hp 4V L31 Chevrolet Biscayne – 9.35 – 3740
- 64 427/425hp 8V lo riser Gal Custom 2dr sed -9.41 -3999
- 64 427/425hp 8V lo riser Custom 500 2dr sed 9.44- 4016
B/S – 9.5-10.59
- 64 427/425hp 8V lo riser Galaxie 500 2dr sed – 9.50- 4038
- 63 406/405hp 3x2V Galaxie – 9.51 – 3851
- 63 427/410hp 4V lo riser Galaxie – 9.52 – 3903
- 64 427/425hp 8V lo riser Galaxie 500 H/Top – 9.52 – 4046
- 62 383/343hp 8V in line Plym Belvedere – 9.54 – 3272
- 64 427/425hp 8V lo riser Galaxie 500 XL 2dr H/top – 9.61- 4084
- 65 389/360HP 4V Pontiac LeMans GTO 2dr Coupe – 9.63 – 3467
- 62 383/343hp 8V in line Dodge Polara 2dr sed – 9.66 – 3087
- 64 427/410 4V lo riser Gal Custom 2dr sed – 9.75-3999
- 64 427/410 4V lo riser Gal Custom 500 2dr sed- 9.79 – 4016
- 65 400/345hp 4V Oldsmobile 442 2dr coupe – 9.84 – 3395
- 64 427/410 4V lo riser Galaxie 500 2dr H/top – 9.87 – 4046
- 62 361/ 305hp 4V Fury/Belv/Savoy/Dart/330/440 – 10.35 – 3156
C/S – 10.6-11.29
- 62 389/363hp 3x2V Pontiac Catalina – 10.60 – 3847
- 65 289/271hp 4V HiPo Mustang – 10.60 – 2872
- 65 289/271hp Mercury Comet 2dr sed – 10.62 – 2878
- 65 383/330hp 4V Plym Satellite 2dr sed – 10.62 – 3504
- 62 361/305hp 4V Plymouth Fury 2dr H/top – 10.71 – 3267
- 61 283/270hp 8V Corvette – 10.76 – 2905
DISQUALIFICATIONS
Leroy Stutzman – DQ’d after winning A/SA at the Winters.
Darrell Droke – DQ’d on technicalities after winning B/FX at the Springnats. Under new rules for 65, Fred Cutler should have been recorded as the winner, however he was already on the road.
CARS
FORD / MERCURY – For 1965, Ford all but abandoned the idea of competing against the A990 Race Hemi cars and winning Super Stock. Instead, the Ford focused its efforts using the 427 SOHC, through the ‘Drag Council’ (Factory sponsored race drivers) in the FX class.
Stock – Galaxie – There is a question over who drove the 796 car at the Springnats AA/S final. Entry list confirms Mike Schmitt driving ‘740’ and Doug Butler driving ‘796’. What we DO know is the winning Springnats AA/S car was #796.
Bobby Spears believed it was Mike Schmitt – however many sources say it was Doug Butler. There are no known pics of the ‘740’ 65 Galaxy….however Schmitt has been photographed with the 796 car.
Schmitt was unhappy with the performance of his 65 AA/S Galaxy…. He took both cars to the Springnats…..and took Top Stock Eliminator in his 64 AA/S car.
Bobby Spears on the AA/S Winternats – “Schmitt won on a solo in his 65 Galaxy due to me losing a FL1-A oil filter on my semi run and was not able to get back in line to race him for the trophy. I watched him as I was almost back on the return road,N.H.R.A. said they thought I blew my engine due to all the smoke getting on my headers.His best run if I remember was about 13.00 or maybe just in the 12’s and I was running almost in the 11’s that day. Sad but that is racing as we all say. “
A/FX Mustang – Ford shoe-horned their massive 427 SOHC ‘Cammer’ motor into 7 Mustangs that were rebuilt with light weight frames and many fiberglass panels. The 427 Hi Riser was used when supplies of the SOHC ran short.
B/FX & C/FX –(Courtesy Hot Rod Magazine) – “Ford’s B car(s) were based on the Fairlane and Galaxy, and could be equipped with either the 427 high-riser wedge with dual-fours or the new SOHC engine with Webers”.
FX – Mercury – Entered 427 Comets and also a powerful little 289 Comet package in B/FX.
C/FX – Galaxie – The new Ford C/FX combination would also use the Galaxie/289 Cobra combo. The base was the 1965 Galaxie 500 hardtop that had a vented fiberglass hood with a Thunderbolt-like teardrop bulge (3,550 pounds base weight minus 23 for the hood)
CHRYSLER
A990 RACE HEMI – Both the Dodge and Plymouth factory lightweight race ‘specials’ used acid dipped steel; these cars forced Ford into developing the 427 SOHC, a completely new race motor (which was subsequently disallowed from the S/S class).
The Race Hemi A990 was another step beyond the 64 A864 Race Hemis, which had already proved to be the cars to beat in late 64. Alloy heads, magnesium intake, dual Holley carbs …..the 65 A990 Race Hemis dominated S/S and SS/A until mid 1968. They also convinced the bean counters in Detroit to commercially release the 426 ‘Street Hemi’ motor. A far milder combo, the ‘street Hemi’ was released in 1966.
C/FX – “The lightened 273 small block Plymouth was nothing really radical. Ultimately, we put Weber carbs on it, using a hand-fabricated intake manifold built by a friend of mine named Joe Tribus, who was really good” – Dave Koffel, owner of Koffel’s Place in Huron, Ohio.
CHEVROLET/ PONTIAC – By 65 , Chevelles appeared in limited numbers in A/S, B/S and C/S Stock classes..,as did Pontiac GTOs. However neither brand had anything from the factory that could run in S/S or AA/S. Both marques featured in Match Bash…the light Chevelle and Nova bodies suited this highly modified class, however the old Z11 427cui engines and the new Pontiac 421 HO used in the GTOs were down on power compared to the Race Hemis and 427 SOHCs.
Below is an important list for the ‘bench racer’ to digest…..
– Btwn 65-67, NHRA had a rule banning cars under 8.0lbs per CID (Not to be confused with lb/hp factoring) from S/S. Its purpose was to maintain some ‘stock’ integrity.
The following cars were booted from S/S-
64 426/425hp LW Plymouth A864 Race Hemi – (500hp)- 3234/426=7.59lbs
64 427/425hp Fairlane Thunderbolt (500hp) – 3203/427= 7.50 lbs
– The Ford SOHC came on the scene to counter the Race Hemi – NHRA declared it not legal for S/S as it was not put in enough cars. It was available as an over the counter option – but no dice….such were the NHRA’s whims.
– The 426 A990 cross ram Race Hemi was deemed legal for S/S because more than 50 lightweight race cars were built by both the Plymouth and Dodge companies. (Hemi Order code A990).
– Mopar’s 4 (or 6) 2% altered wheel base cars and the 2% AWB 427 SOHC Mustang and Cyclones were deemed legal for FX – The more extreme 16” AWB Mopars were not.
– The 16” AWB Mopars had to run the match racing circuit and the NHRA match bash circuit. Later joined by other AWB cars.
The vast difference in acceptable specification btwn AHRA, Match racing and NHRA has resulted in very different recollections of ‘who was fastest’….and will never be resolved. What we do have are the results of the ‘most street legal’ competition…which was NHRA.
Ford dominated FX and AA/S and Mopar ruled the S/S class. Junior Stock and Top Stock eliminations – the spoils were shared amongst all brands.
Things happened fast in 65 – there were some big developments from the factory race teams and the FX class spawned some radical ideas…some accepted by the NHRA…..and some not.
MEETS
1965 saw the NHRA introduce two new National meets, the Spring Nationals in Bristol, Tennessee and the World Finals in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
The World Finals was intended to crown the ‘World Champ’…..instead of a points accrual system and trophy….points would qualify for entry…and drivers raced for the Class championship.
WINTERNATIONALS – Pomona, CA – February 7 – The 1965 Winternationals were run under duress by the NHRA. They had lost two days of qualifying and class eliminations due to weather and the sanctioning body was essentially forced to run a race with hundreds and hundreds of entries in a single day, over a 10 hour period. Also, there was no “run on Monday” option…these guys were ‘semi-pro’ drivers.
So no S/S or S/SA class ‘finals’…fastest time got the trophy.
An all time Chevy hero – Bill Jenkins 1st Nationals title as a driver was in a Plymouth. He was highly competitive in Chrysler product – both in engineering and driving. However Chrysler withdrew support and he became just as competitive as a ‘privateer’ – he was discreetly supported by Chevrolet and established an enormously successful race engine building business and Pro Stock career.
SPRING NATIONALS – Bristol, TN – June 6 – The first of the ‘new meets’ was at the newly built Bristol Speedway, situated in a valley, the track rapidly earned the nickname ‘Thunder Valley’ as the noise from the cars sounded like rolling thunder.
We also saw ‘Match Bash’ make its debut at this meet.
NATIONALS – Indianapolis, IN – September 6 – A rain interruption forced a tight schedule, however Top Stock classes and Stock were not effected.
WORLD FINALS – Tulsa, OK – October 31 – From 1960-64, the class ‘world champion’ was decided by points accumulation. In 1965, Racers qualified to compete at the World Finals event based on points accrued at six events in each of NHRA’s divisions, with each division’s top two finishers allowed to attend the event. Run offs at this event decided the World Champ. This meet was held at the originally-named SouthWest Raceway, later to become the Tulsa International Raceway, Oklahoma.
CLASS AND ELIMINATIONS CHANGES
FX- The Winters saw the last FX ‘Factory Stock Eliminator’. By the Springnats, FX cars were allowed to compete with S/S, S/SA for Top Stock. Also, AA/S and AA/SA cars were moved into the Top Stock eliminations. B/FX and C/FX were relegated to the Junior Stock Elimination run offs.
RULES
DISQUALIFICATIONS – At Indy, it was decided that the runner up would be awarded the trophy if the class winner was DQ’d. Unfortunately, many drivers – like Fred Cutler- did not ‘hang around’ and missed out on their class win certification.
BUILD RULES –
Minimum build #s for S/S was 100, as per 1964.
In a way, Ford had its cake and got to eat it – NHRA had created the new AA/S class in late 64 for the 64 lightweight Galaxies – The trade off was AA/S would run off for Top Stock….not Jr Stock.
FUNNY CARS vs FX – The difference?
FX – Chrysler opened a door in S/S that might better have been left closed – the 2% exercise withered under the weight trailered by the lighter more powerful SOHC Mustangs. The 2% cars were soon changed to full AWB.
Ford went ahead and dominated ‘legal’ FX with its lightweight SOHC Mustangs and Comets – Bill Lawton piloting his 65 Mustang to a Winternational A/FX class and Factory Stock (FX) Eliminations wins ……..Ritchie winning A/FX at the Nats …but these cars and the AWB Mopars had no VIN, no real interior and so the writing was on the wall as far as NHRA retaining them in ‘stock’ class racing.
Ford also targeted the lower FX classes with multi carburetor small blocks and pretty much ruled the roost but for Phil Koffel’s small block Plymouth at Indy.
The rivalry between the Dodge-Plymouth teams and the Ford-Mercury camp was extremely intense and Chrysler made major moves for 1965 by luring Sox & Martin from Mercury to Plymouth.
Experienced Chevy racers like Malcolm Durham, Tom Sturm and Dick Harrell flew the Chevy flag in Chevelles and Novas – running the 427cui Z11 , the Z16 327/350hp and new for 64 396. These cars ran radical AWB in match races across the country.
EXTREME WHEELBASES! – Chryslers top drivers continued to shift wheelbases…..Dick Landy was the first to significantly move the rear axle forward.
The Mopar 16” AWB cars were declared illegal for NHRA competition, but their nine-second performances easily outclassed the high 10-second potential of the NHRA-legal AFX entries (the FX Fords, Comets and 2% Mopars). The SOHC FoMoCo FX cars ran high 10s (around 130mph) usually slightly quicker (2/100ths on average) than the older 200lb heavier Mopars. …The 16% NA AWB Mopars low 10s, dipping into the 9s…(134 mph)….later using nitro methane and fuel injection.
NEW CLASS – MATCH BASH! – So, the Match Bash class was devised to accommodate the 16” Altered Wheel Base (AWB) Mopars. At the SpringNats, we saw Strickler, Faubel and Harrop in Dodges, and Lee Smith, Sox and Ekstrand in Plymouths.
Ford subsequently disallowed their cars from competing against the new Mopar AWB “Funny Cars” in NHRA competition…so the “16 inch” AWB Mopars ended up running 130+ mph against themselves – THIS was the genesis of the Funny car class.
Eventually Ford and Chrysler came to an agreement in the % of wheel base shift and minimum weight classes for these ‘Match Race’ cars for the 1966 season.
It wasn’t long until hardened match racers like Arnie Beswick and Don Gay joined the AWB show.
INDY – Shellenberger getting the hole shot on Grotheer on the way to winning Stock Eliminator. Earlier, Grotheer had beaten Shellenberger for the AA/S class win.
Editors note. – SOME RACE CARS NEVER DIE! –
Finding pictures of 55 year old race cars is not always easy- Social Media has made things a bit quicker…but mostly it’s luck contacting the right person.
In my search for pictures of Leroy Stutzman and Rich Lorenze, I happened across a friend of Lorenze’s son, Tony.
Rich has passed, but one message and Tony had supplied pictures of both his father’s Stockers – his 63 Gal that ran as runner up in 65 in A/Stock – and his 66 lightweight Fairlane – both of which is still in Tony’s possession!
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